Suspension from "school" for talking! - long but need help - UPDATED!

Well, I have to say I really need some feedback from you ladies on this one - I saw a posting the other day about a child being "suspended" from daycare for biting and I have another "suspension" issue with my daughter.

Her daycare is threatening to suspend her for, get this, - TALKING IN CLASS!!! She is in the four-year-old room and her teacher/director of the daycare (same person) wrote me a note yesterday telling me that Lily is talking in class and HUMMING(!) too much. Therefore, if she doesn't "straighten up" they will suspend her for a day!!!

FIRST, she's FOUR YEARS OLD!! Second, is that really a reason to suspend a child? I'm a teacher as well (college) and would be laughed at if I tried to throw a student out of my class for TALKING (and they are 20+ years old - they know better - they are not 4!) Third, is humming really that big of an issue? Especially during "TV time" or while she's eating? Could she just be happy or have a sweet little tune going through her head. As far as I can tell, Lily has gotten in trouble for talking and/or humming during class time, activity time, bathroom time, nap time, eating time, and TV TIME!!

When can these kids talk or hum? OH, and it has been brought to my attention that these kids are watching 2-3 hours of tv everyday!! Not EDUCATIONAL videos - but regular cartoons. Shouldn't a TEACHER be trained in how to handle a child with a short-attention span? Maybe if they actually kept the children involved in activities she wouldn't have time to talk. I personally would prefer to talk with my friend or sing a song than sit like a zombie in front of a TV for hours every day! Instead of learning how to "teach" children of all types (including those that have to help staying focused), they are telling her and us that she is just "being bad"! These are supposed to be "licensed" teachers who know a little about Early Childhood Development (which they all are NOT - most are college students from the local school)!

Here's the worst part - I'm chair of the daycare Board of Directors. I'm really worried she's singling my daughter out. There are so many other things I want to say about this topic but I'm just sick. I've scheduled a meeting for this afternoon with the teachers/director. Please, ladies, give me some feedback - I need some reassurance that I'm standing up for a reasonable issue.

I'm really sorry for all the types/misspellings, etc. - I'm really upset right now and didn't proofread.

 

I guess my initial reaction is that it is WAY outta line. That said though, I wonder if she's been asked to stop if it is disruptive to the other "learners" and she is being defiant and that is the real reason. Notes from teachers or not very detailed.

I would want to find out the context of the "disturbance" your DS is allegedly causing and then make my call from there.

I would not bring up the TV time in this conference, focus on one thing at a time so you don't get to defensive. You can ask about the TV time another time, especially if the results of today's conferance are that DD gets switched to a new teacher.

Make sure you take a deep breath and go in open minded, be at least willing to concede that there is a chance your DD is in the wrong here while still very willing to defend her and her joyful spirit.

Good Luck...keep us updated!!!

 

I would definitely get them to provide the specifics on how her talking and humming is SO disruptive that it warrants a suspension. Who is she talking to exactly--certainly not to herself. I find it hard to believe that all the other 4 year olds are completely quiet during these activities. Aren't most daycares full of chatter most of the time? I'm with you on this one. This sounds completely ridiculous.

 

Wow, I'm shocked that they want to suspend her for talking, that is ridiculous. Like you said she is 4!!! While I know daycare is like a school setting, it is not school. I would definitely asks for specifics, when is she doing this, is it while the teacher is talking, has she been asked to stop, How are THEY handling it when she does this. Personally I feel for just talking they need to handle it, with maybe a note or call to you to let you know this is happening. That seems way out of line to me. That is something that should be handled there during the day!! Sorry you are going through this!

 

I am sorry, but this is ridiculous! When, exactly, do our children just get to be children. She is 4. And daycare is NOT school. They are stuck there soon enough. 2-3 hours TV time is way out of line. I'd let em have it.

 

Good Luck with your meeting and give her ****!!! I'm 29 and still talk all the time (yes, even in class).

 

I agree with previous people but have something to add. How is suspesion going to make her stop talking in class?

 

i agree totally with you and everyone else. Besides all the previous mentioned points....even if she was suspended for talking, she wouldn't "get" why she was being suspended, and the talking wouldn't stop. I would be outraged at this. Surely there has to be more to it than what she has told you so far.

 

That was me with the biting and daycare suspension issue. I read this and thought What the heck? She is FOUR! I think that is absurd for them to threaten to suspend her for talking. At four years old that's hardly a punishment, because there are no consequences. I personally believe suspension only works when they are older and grades reflect the suspension.

In any case, if they are allowing them to watch that much television, then that means they are not doing anything educational. You have to factor in naptime, and lunch. That's another 2-3 hours....THere is 6 hours a day. So for 2-3 hours they let them play? Doesn't seem right to me. So they have to be perfectly quiet during play time, tv time, and lunch? That's a little much for a four year old. Really my only concern would be possibly instructional time, reading or nap time.

You are a teacher, go with your gut. If this doesn't seem right, it's probably not. I have expressed to our director about the biting and how I am really trying to work with Caden and the teachers about this. I'm hoping once she sees that, that the threat of suspension goes out the window.

In any case, "straighten up" is a bit harsh and out of line. It just doens't seem right to expect that much discipline out of a four year old. What is she doing to help her? Are they allowing them enough time to play and release the loads of energy that 4 years old have? Doesn't seem like it.

 

I agree with most of the pp's. I would ask them what they are doing as far as discipline in the room. Is it age appropriate? What are the consequences? Ex... My oldest dd's kindergarten had a "lollipop" system. The lollipops were color coded smiley faces on a popsicle stick. At the start of the day, they had a green, two yellow and a red. If the child misbehaved they had to go "pull" the lollipop in sequence. The first warning was pulling the green pop and that was the only consequence. If they had a second warning they pulled the first yellow pop and lost 5 minutes of playtime. The second yellow resulted in a loss of all recess where they had to sit on the bench and watch the other kids play. The red pop resulted in a note home about the behavior and loss of recess. If it was habitual, it would result in a call home to mom from the princepals office to find a way to deal with whatever the issue was. Her teacher was very strict but a call home was pretty much reserved for the worst possible behaviors. AND if you had green all week, and didn't pull any of your lollies, you got a lollipop or other treat at the end of the week. This kind of system frequently works for 4 year olds as well.
Also, that is entirely too much TV for a daycare or preschool setting. The kids should be engaged in play and activities of some sort for 90% of the day.
Good luck and keep us posted.

 

quote:
Originally posted by kerrmommy:
I guess my initial reaction is that it is WAY outta line. That said though, I wonder if she's been asked to stop if it is disruptive to the other "learners" and she is being defiant and that is the real reason. Notes from teachers or not very detailed.


Make sure you take a deep breath and go in open minded, be at least willing to concede that there is a chance your DD is in the wrong here while still very willing to defend her and her joyful spirit.

Good Luck...keep us updated!!!


I agree here. First of all I think this is the crux f the problem in 'schools' all the fun is taken away from students. SHE IS FOUR!!!! I expect my 16 year old not to tlak in class.... but not ALL the time, their collaboration is how learning takes place. I can't imagine that humming is terribly disruptive and shouldn't day care be fun? Too much structure is no good IMHO. I would be livid... Good for you for advocating for your baby!

 

They actually expect a four year old to understand the idea of a suspension? You have got to be kidding me? I am sorry, but that is just ridiculous... or do they think it is some kind of "punishment" for you, since you have to deal with her being home and finding care or losing a day of work?

As a teacher, I am not impressed at your description of the school/daycare. If they are not engaging your daughter and they spend the day watching TV, I would seriously consider finding something different for my kids..

Keep us posted on what happens.. I am interested in finding out what they say! Best of luck!

 

Hi, I'm going to try to look at the situation from a parent's perspective as well as a teacher's perspective. I'm hoping what I say will benefit your daughter because bottom line, she is really what is important here.

1. First of all if you plan to continue to have her in this program working with this particular teacher/adult then I'd do my best to work things out in as professional manner as possible ie approach her pleasantly as possible, as difficult as that may be. You don't want your daughter to be an even greater target if she is being singled out.

2. I'm going to assume that your daughter does enjoy chatting, humming and may have continued to do so when asked to stop. Have you noticed this at home? If yes, since you are a teacher, you probably have effective ways to curb this when necessary. I would try to assist this teacher, who may not be certified, in helpful suggestions how she can shape the behavior desired as an alternative to suspension. I personally don't see how a 4 year old will benefit or change their behavior simply by staying home. My experience is the most effective change of behavior is a cooperative effort between parent(s) and school as Serena is doing.

3. Is this note for suspension the first time you have had this "issue" brought to your attention? If so, I would definitely inquire why you weren't notified of this prior to this note with such a severe outcome. I'd also ask how is her humming specifically affecting activity time, eating, and rest room. Ex: Is it affecting the ability of other children to hear, follow directions or complete the task.

4. Is there a list of class rules with consequences? If not posted, what is the normal consequence for a behavior that is considered inappropriate? (At 4 years of age, if excessive talking is the only behavior that requires a consequence, I'd be extremely surprised!)

5. I know some day cares are primarily "play care" in which case I'm not quite sure how chatting, humming could be so disruptive as to require suspension. If this day care is supposed to have a more structured program, I'd request a schedule of daily activities. In this way you may be address the board at a later date, with a few suggestions of alternative activities which would engage the children, instead of extended t.v. time.

Anyway, hope your meeting goes well!
Sharon

 

quote:
As a teacher, I am not impressed at your description of the school/daycare. If they are not engaging your daughter and they spend the day watching TV, I would seriously consider finding something different for my kids..

I'm not a teacher, but this is my thought as well!!

It sounds a little out there!! I would be upset and shocked as well!! I hope you resolve this easily. Please keep us posted!

 

Ridiculous! Even before you mentioned the cartoons, I was thinking that a 4yo who talks and hums in class is probably not being engaged enough. Then when you said that they are watching hours of TV everyday, it's obvious that she is not getting the stimulation she requires. If your college students talk during class, it's because your lectures are boring (just an example, I'm not saying they are). Your daughter is bored and craves more education and activity than she is getting. If the preschool cannot supply this then you need to find a new class for her where she's not told that she's "bad" for being smarter than they want her to be.

I'm sure you're in your meeting right now but if the school is not the right fit for your daughter then you need to step down and find a new school. On the other hand, if you're chair of the board then maybe you have a responsibility to fix the problem by upgrading the curriculum and re-training the teachers.

 

WOW! This is hard to believe. Do they REALLY expect a 4 yo to understand or care about the concept of suspension? My son does fine at his daycare, but his preference would be to be home with me or daddy. If he got threatened with suspension for bad behavior, I think he just might take them up on the offer!

And when I say bad behavior, I mean bad behavior. I really don't consider talking and humming "bad." Sounds like your dd is just cheerul, happy, well adjusted. I can understand the argument that the talking may be disruptive to the class, but the discipline does not seem even remotely appropriate for her age and for the behavior.

My daycare does sticker charts by time so they get a sticker for positive behavior each time of the day (ex: calm down for lunch, activity time, play time, rest time, etc). If they get all the stickers, then they get a treat at the end of the day. (I actually don't agree with the treat/candy, but the concept works and it is my only gripe about my daycare so CERTAINLY not worth finding a new daycare over). My kids are only 2 and they seem to understand, for the most part, that the stickers are good, etc. They are both very proud at the end of the day when they get their treat (or should I say "if").

I guess my initial gut reaction to your post is that it sounds like things might be a little off with their philosophies and it may be time to look in to an different daycare.

Let us know what happens. Be calm but firm with the concept that the punishment is not age or behavior appropriate and try not to be defensive. Good luck.

 

Perhaps you can use your leverage as a board member to enforce a more strict daytime routine that doesn't include TV watching. My kids don't attend daycare, but my sister's do and let me tell you, they keep those kids BUSY. Everything is scheduled: coloring, snacks, naps, playtime, etc. They do not have the time to watch TV.

I understand that daycare is not preschool and does not have to adhere to the same rules and regulations. However, I would think that they would have some policy as far as class management is concerned, and not have to resort to suspending a four year old.

 

Just seeing how this panned out? How the meeting with the teacher/director go?

 

I would be very upset too and if you need encouragment that you are not overreacting, it looks like you've gotten it here!

The humming/suspension issue is totally ridiculous but what really has me thinking is there is 2-3 hours of TV time??? I am almost sure this is a center and not a home day care situation since there is a board of directors in which case this is fairly outrageous, IMHO. I don't think TV has any place in a daycare/preschool. Granted the place where my kids go isn't perfect (at all) but from 7:30am-5:30pm there is scheduled activites that DO NOT include a television. Art projects, play inside, play outside, snack, lunch, nap that takes up a whole day.

Of course if you have no other option for daycare, you have no choice but to deal with this one but since you are on the board you can actually have a say in it. After you deal with your 4 year olds "suspension", of course.

Let us know what happens.

 

I could go on a tangent about your experiences, but I won't. Why? I have BTDT with my oldest DS. Take my advice....RUN, do not walk, away from any place that would ever supsend a child at this age for ANYTHING. Also, if the school tells you one thing, then see the ped. Ask them for an eval. If the ped tells you that your child is fine, then you know who/what the problem is.

I am VERY sorry that this has happened. Absolutely insane. Get your kids out of there!

 

Well, I wanted to update everyone on our meeting and subsequence changes at the daycare.

It was a LONG meeting (over an hour) and I hit on everyone topic that I had issues with. I won't bore you on her (the director/teacher) very disappointing answers but here are some issues that came to my attention from her responses:

1. She does not believe in positive re-enforcement. I asked if she had given my DD any positive feedback on some of the issues we have been working on and she has improved and she said basically, "no, unless we tell you otherwise, you can assume your child is doing fine and behaving herself" - in other words, she doesn't say much to the kids or parents unless they are doing something WRONG!

2. She can't understand why her "punishments" work for some kids and not for others like my DD - DUH!!!! My response? "All children are different - what works for one won't work for another." I thought that was common sense (especially for someone who supposedly knows a little about childhood development).

3. I made a comment about the different ways you can bring a child back into "focus" like redirecting them ("show me your picture, can you explain it to me?") and giving them special assignments like teacher's helper, line-leader, etc. and she had basically no idea what I was talking about. So I questioned her on her background and she did not answer as a I expected. I'm certainly questioning her qualifications now to be in the position she is in.

There were four other people in the meeting - the preacher from the church (the daycare is part of it), my DD's other two teachers, and my DH. By the end of the meeting, we had made it quite clear that we were totally against a suspension for talking/humming and clearly explained the logical, education-related reasons why that is not practical (my husband is also a teacher by degree/experience although he does not work in the field currently). We requested a copy of the minute-by-minute curriculum/schedule for her class. The next day they had a new one ready for me - completely revised!!! They took away about 3/4 of the TV time and created new work/play centers for the kids and different activites.

I live in a small town where there are no other day care options for my kids. As a member of the board, I feel like I'm actually in a position to make changes here instead of letting things continue the way they are. I am encouraging feedback from other parents and we have a board meeting this weekend where I will be bringing up a lot of the issues. Wish me luck on my venture - if there's one thing worth taking a stand on it's my kids. I welcome new ideas that I can introduce!

Thanks everyone for your comments! It was one of those times where you know your right but you need to hear it from other woman in your place. Once again, I really appreciate the support I get here and don't know what I'd do without it!

 

Keri!! GOOD JOB!!! (You should edit your title in your original post to read UPDATE!....)

I am astonished that she didn't answer with her background and qualifications. I am guessing she'll be looking for another job soon! (I HOPE!) Not believing in POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT?! UNBELIEVABLE! I have NO background in childhood education or anything and that strikes me as NUTTY!

I was a positive reinforcement child. I needed it and without it I was not going to "perform" so to speak. I can't imagine!

Good for you!!!

 

I was pointed this way by a member.

I'm an early childhood educator (my diploma is the same as a BS in Child Studies in the US) and am very happy that it looks like they've scaled down the TV time but even having TV time durring the day is pretty darn unacceptible. We are allowed one movie a month and many months go by without movies in some groups. (usually done on the 3rd or 4th rain day in a row when even the most child centered fun stuff gets boring)

One of my first questions would be what is the education of this teacher/director? I see from your post that you are planning on doing just that.

Then I would see what toys/games/activities are avalible for the children. A well planned schedual should affort lots of creative free play. (kids do learn from "just play" but thats a whole other thread) There can be structured sitting time (circles and "teaching time") but it shouldn't take up the majority of the day.

Good luck.

 

Wow. Isn't amazing that you sit on the board and, yet, know nothing of this teacher's/director's qualifications?

I'm sure you remember my issues very similar to this at my job. Unlike you, I had now power to change the situation (though, indirectly, some changes did happen).

Congrats on being courageous enough to stick up for your girl.

I think that teacher needs to go back to school for some career development or hit the road.

 

good for you Keri!!
Let us know what happens.

 

i'm glad you had a meeting and that you requested a curriculum lesson plan for every minute of the day.

maybe there can be a curriculum task force formed by the teachers, some parents and other pertinent ppl. have them examine curriculum that will help structure the day appropriately.

Definitely encourage the director and teachers to get some additional training under their belts before Fall hits.

 

As a follow up to their moment-by-moment scedule you we given, I would stop by unannounced a few times, diff. times, over the next few months if you(and your DH) can spare the time to make sure they are following it and not just placaiding you.

Good Luck..the gal sounds way underqualified so good luck making some possitive change and being that leader those kids need.

 

Good for you! I know how hard it is to be in your position and it takes courage to question the "authority". I also can relate to the fact that you have no other options and have to deal with what you have. Be the thorne in their side and make it better for everyone!

quote:
I would stop by unannounced a few times, diff. times, over the next few months if you(and your DH) can spare the time to make sure they are following it and not just placaiding you.
- I totally agree with this, btw.

Good luck!

 

Keri,
I am impressed that you effected such change! The director would possibly benefit from some professional development in the area of child development and psychology. I think that people think it is 'easy' to teach preschoolers and she is learning that it takes work and preparation. I would request copies of lesson plans, as president of the board you are totally within your rights to request these even a week in advance....

GREAT JOB!

 

OH Keri!!!!!!
I have not been on TS in ages due to being overwhelmingly busy...but I could not help but see you post!!!! Hailey (My 4 year old) had major issues with her 1st preschool teacher!!! After a month I pulled her out and put her in another one that was supposed to be "God's Gift" If you know what I mean. Well after a year and a half of that I pulled her out a month ago and I have my daughter back!!! She was hating going to school because another little girl was being mean to her. Her teacher was having issues and my daughter was turning not nice at home. Sorry for my vent, but I cannot believe someone would require a 4 yr old to be quiet, let alone suspend them for it. I also do not feel I am paying someone to watch tv with my kids. I feel your pain!! I have battled the same type of issues for a year.

My new solution is an 18 year old senior homeschooler is coming several hours a week and taking care of all 3 of my kiddos!!! A true break for me! I don't even have to pack a lunch or load up the car!! She sends me complete lesson plans and has my kids active from the moment she gets here to the moment she leaves. I am not paying much more for all 3 of them than I was for Hailey to be tomented in preschool!!!!!!!!! It has proven to be a great solution!!

Hope all turns out alright and yes you are so right, let Lily be a kid!!!
Monica

 

I would encourage you as a member of the board to be careful not to give the impression you are throwing your weight around because you don't like the teacher, or because she made a complaint about your child.

Try to approach the situation and the teacher as if you want to help her be the best teacher she can be. Be sure to encourage her in the way you are asking her to encourage your child. Find some things about the way she runs the class that you can praise her for while offering suggestions for improvement.

I think whe will take things a lot better if she feels like you are working with her, not against her.

After all, that is what you want. You want to make the day care the best it can be for your daughter and all the other children who are there.

Good luck. It looks like you are in a position to bring about some very possitive changes!

 

That's a very unpleasant situation and to be honest, I don't know how to get out of this. Personally, I didn't have such problems but I had problems with writing tasks and I needed the help of the best essay writing services for students. So I always read reviews about them.